Talk:Mandala System
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I question the validity of the statement that Marduk created the Throne of Creation. Samael's quote that is used to justify this statement only mentions Marduk placing a curse on the Throne, not that he created it, and that the Mandala System allowed this to happen because it didn't interfere with the cycle of rulers.User:Herekit (talk) 22:18, 2 December 2024 (AEST)
- Looking back, I suppose it does not directly say that Marduk created the Throne, but he is credited as the original holder of the Throne and it was him who killed Tiamat ultimately leading to the institution of the "world of order", so I don't think it's a huge leap in logic. Especially considering that the goal of the Qadistu is to destroy the Throne, which implies that their view of returning the world to chaos is to bring it to a state where the Throne did not exist. Also, it's worth noting that Samael didn't say "cycle of rulers", he simply said cycle which could refer to any number of things (e.g. cycle of reincarnation, universe recreation, etc.). That said, I'm open to other options if my line of thinking isn't acceptable though.
ଘ(੭ˊᵕˋ)੭* ੈ‧˚✩‧₊˚ ♡
Capes (talk) 14:42, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- Update: I discussed the topic with staff, and upon further consideration, even assuming that the Throne became relevant after the death of Tiamat, the assumption that Marduk personally made the Throne does not meet wiki standards. Thanks for your help.
ଘ(੭ˊᵕˋ)੭* ੈ‧˚✩‧₊˚ ♡ Capes (talk) 17:10, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would Like to further dispute claims about the Throne and Mandala system. While it is definitive that they are seperate, the Throne being an object of power and Mandala being a force of reality, there is nothing to suggest that the Throne didn't exist prior to Marduk taking power. Lilith specifically states "A very long time ago... there lived a primordial Goddess. A most benevolent mother who gave birth to many gods. She was a kind mother. And noble. She disliked conflict and violence. But then... The Horned God came... Seeking his throne, he slew all in his path. And the mother was cut down. Since his rise... the throne has been usurped by descendants of that horned god. For eons upon eons." which implies that Marduk killed Tiamat specifically for the Throne, as he was "'seeking his throne'". With the Qadistu seeking to both restore Tiamat and undo the legacy of Marduk, it's likely that Tiamat controlled the Throne but did not rule with it, hence the world of equals Lilith mentions, then Marduk claimed it from her as dictated by the Mandala system and established the hierarchy. This quote by Samael "Are you aware that it is the first ruler, the bull god Marduk, who is responsible for twisting this world? He placed a curse upon the throne such that his reign would persist, even should his rule be challenged. And the system that governs this world allowed it. Perhaps because it would not stymie the continuation of the cycle... Therefore, we, the followers of the serpent, seek to erase that curse, the system, and this world that has been wrought with oppression!" specifically mentions that the Mandala System allowed the the curse to be placed on the Throne, not it's establishment or usage. From this I feel what this wiki is stating about the Throne and Mandala should be re-evaluated.User:Herekit (talk) 18:12, 3 December 2024 (AEST)
- I don't really agree due to the aforementioned reasons, but I recognize the validity of the argument. Considering the previous ruling I think the proper course would be simply stating that the Mandala System and the Throne are distinct, and not making any position on the Throne's existence prior to Marduk that's not explicitly stated.
ଘ(੭ˊᵕˋ)੭* ੈ‧˚✩‧₊˚ ♡ Capes (talk) 07:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I don't really agree due to the aforementioned reasons, but I recognize the validity of the argument. Considering the previous ruling I think the proper course would be simply stating that the Mandala System and the Throne are distinct, and not making any position on the Throne's existence prior to Marduk that's not explicitly stated.
- I would Like to further dispute claims about the Throne and Mandala system. While it is definitive that they are seperate, the Throne being an object of power and Mandala being a force of reality, there is nothing to suggest that the Throne didn't exist prior to Marduk taking power. Lilith specifically states "A very long time ago... there lived a primordial Goddess. A most benevolent mother who gave birth to many gods. She was a kind mother. And noble. She disliked conflict and violence. But then... The Horned God came... Seeking his throne, he slew all in his path. And the mother was cut down. Since his rise... the throne has been usurped by descendants of that horned god. For eons upon eons." which implies that Marduk killed Tiamat specifically for the Throne, as he was "'seeking his throne'". With the Qadistu seeking to both restore Tiamat and undo the legacy of Marduk, it's likely that Tiamat controlled the Throne but did not rule with it, hence the world of equals Lilith mentions, then Marduk claimed it from her as dictated by the Mandala system and established the hierarchy. This quote by Samael "Are you aware that it is the first ruler, the bull god Marduk, who is responsible for twisting this world? He placed a curse upon the throne such that his reign would persist, even should his rule be challenged. And the system that governs this world allowed it. Perhaps because it would not stymie the continuation of the cycle... Therefore, we, the followers of the serpent, seek to erase that curse, the system, and this world that has been wrought with oppression!" specifically mentions that the Mandala System allowed the the curse to be placed on the Throne, not it's establishment or usage. From this I feel what this wiki is stating about the Throne and Mandala should be re-evaluated.User:Herekit (talk) 18:12, 3 December 2024 (AEST)
- Update: I discussed the topic with staff, and upon further consideration, even assuming that the Throne became relevant after the death of Tiamat, the assumption that Marduk personally made the Throne does not meet wiki standards. Thanks for your help.